Loyd (re)asks the basic question. WHY does there need to be a change at all? The basic premise of this thread was to increase the quality of the entries. However, NOWHERE is there a link between any of these plans and the quality of the entries.

High quality entries are supposed to garner the talent points, but talent points don't necessarily mean an entry had quality. This thread seems to be looking at it the second way. There may be a correlative link between entries and talent points, but there certainly isn't a causal one. We can come up with all the statistical permutations we'd like, but that doesn't mean entries of the future will have one iota better quality.

If the quality of entries stays close to the same, and there's no reason so far to think they wouldn't, then all this is doing is figuring out a way to give out more points. This, in turn, will not accomplish anything beyond diluting the accomplishments of those who have already accomplished the levels and points they've already gotten. So again, WHY should there be any change? The concept of "presumption" says you shouldn't have change simply for the sake of change - there should be a legitimate reason for change that can be backed by reasoning and evidence.

This will probably be my last post on this thread as I'm sure people are getting bored with me. I'll just wait and see what, if any, changes are made and then evaluate my position from there.

As friiskiwi said

While I’m on the subject of voting. I have always felt it is wrong to have just one scale for all, I really don’t feel that I’m qualified to vote on Photoshop contest, but I still have the same vote power there as I do in Photography.

I feel much the same, especially since I only compete in two areas.

Tie Vote Power to the your Level in the area you are voting into to a max of fifty.

I have wondered what the actual number of voters is on entries, as 200 hundred votes may only be 4 people with 5000 vote power.

CMYK46 wrote:Don't complicate something that already works just fine!

That is just the problem: things do NOT work fine and even you should agree with this Bob (and others).
Look at the 3D, drawing and Photoshop contests (I leave photo out of this because that is another story and get back to that later on)

The average 3D and drawing contests get about 4 or 5 entries and no matter how good they are they ALL get TP, go have a look at the quality of some of those entries and everyone should agree that specially in drawing there is a HUGE difference in quality. Some entries are awesome but there's also a lot of rubbish.

In photoshop, I see some people collecting a lot of TP based of the amount of entries instead of the quality of the work. 30-40% of all PS contests get about 7 or 8 entries (and those include useally 2 or 3 last minute entries made so they collect TP), why should we reward the top 7 of them as a standard while also here the amount of good entries is not that high (let's be honest).

Now there's a pretty easy way to raise the amount of entries in Photoshop and if it would have been up to the admin we would have had that system already for a long time but the mods have always been strongly against it (including me), solution: forget about the copyright rules. For our mods this would have meant a lot less work but never the less they choose to do the extra work so PXL stays special at the web and knowing them they rather stop modding then keep on modding with copyrighted sources.
PXL is the only PS community which does have copyright rules and in the eyes of our mods (and a lot of members) this is what PXL makes special. We do not need the copyrighted sources to make quality entries. This also is the reason why a lot of new members leave, they do not want to live up to those rules while they can post the same rejected entries at sites like Worth1000.
But is that the only reason why we get less entries in PS lately? No, the overall global interest in making PS entries is going down, even Worth1000 gets less entries.

Now to the photo contests.
probably we (including me) forgot to make a distinction here between photo contests and our other contests (PS, 3D and drawing): they are doing well! Loads of entries and they are healthy. Kyricom only looks at the photo contests because his interest is only here and I can understand his point of view BUT he should also have a look at the greater picture: the whole of PXL, all of it's contests. There is where he flaws (and me too when I started this discussion). While the 3D, drawing and PS contests have a lot of give away TP the photo contests is actually based on rewarding quality entries which end up top 7 (in 95% of all contests).

But we are 1 community and should have 1 set of rules and also 1 set of rewarding the entries. Looking back I think our admin made a genius move when he merged PST and pxlshots (yes I was against it at that time), in those days the 2 communities where too different in members and mods. Modding-wise pxlshots was a mess, let's be honest. Actually just 2 or 3 out of the 6 mods where actually modding and even those seem to have their own agenda. It took a long time, and a lot of effort from our admin and the PS mods (yes you can thank them as well!) to get this on the right track, to find the right team of mods for the photo contests. And also the PST and pxlshot members grew together thanks to a lot of members on both sides.
Now we are 1 community and we should look at our problems as OUR problems and solve them together. Please stop looking at your own small field of interest and look at the bigger picture.

Now I explained why I came with this idea, the problem with the lack of quality entries in 3D, drawing and Photoshop, I hope you understand better why I came with the idea of rewarding quality entries and not just the top 7. This will mean for photography that a lot more entries will get TP weekly simply because they are good and I have no problem with rewarding something good, this is what we do in school systems all over the world as well. We do not say 'only the top 7 students will be rewarded'. But even the idea that a lot more entries will get TP in photo can be challenged as long as we raise the bar high enough. I mentioned 60% as a underscore to earn TP but this can also be 65 or 70%.

No one can challenge me that a lot of rubbish entries get free TP weekly in 3D, drawing and Photoshop. The choice is ours to either make a difference here or just close our eyes and let members rise in the levels while they actually do not deserve this.

A -10 contest only has use if we use them to help those members to grow (Akassa's idea of the buddysystem might come into this). None of the members who start photoshopping and photo (and 3D and drawing) has any profit into getting free TP weekly and that way rising automatically in the ranks, they reach a point where they make level 10 and have to play with the 'big guys' while their skills are still low. That will be the point they will get frustrated and stop.

So Kyricom (and others) do me a favor and have a look at the other contests as well and forget your favorite contests for a minute and you'll see we do have a huge problem which needs to be solved. We can only do this together as 1 community, otherwise we better split photo and the other contests up again in different sites and I do not think any of us is really willing to do so, it will be bad for all of us.

CMYK46 wrote:Rob, I appreciate your concern about the issues you raise. My only disagreement was I really think entering contests should be free, so as not to discourage new members.

Then we agree

Each week a certain amount of contest ideas are presented. At the start of the week No one knows how many entries to each, will be submitted. This being said, it is not fair to the participants of these (low quantity) contests, to accuse them of entering a low quality piece of work necessarily. Some of us members actually like to create something to enter, whether it be Photoshop, 3D, Drawing, etc.... I happen to fall into this category. Yes along the way I have managed to gain lots of talent points by default ( TP awarded in a top 7 example.) I have to say that because of this aspect of the system, that it has kept my interest in this site/activity high, ie...more entries (hopefully improving quality wise as I learn.)

I think the point of this discussion was to generate more participation and higher quality entries. There are quite a few very talented members here and have been for the entire tenure of pxleyes (some of which a participating in this discussion.) I have to ask the question, why do these "Uber Talented" members not dazzle us with brilliance more often? The more you participate the better your chances of gaining TP! Kind of like a game sort of...the law of odds, if you will.

If the purpose of this revamp the system suggestion is to generate better quality pieces... I would say leave the top 7 thing alone, however award the stand out entries with a nice amount of "Bonus TP." I'm saying those entries that score higher than say a 70% should have the talent points awarded for it's particular position in the rankings, Doubled.

Another idea I have is to have an invitational only contest bi-monthly. A Captains Choice tournament chosen by the Mod/Admin Staff from those members with an average score of perhaps 65% and better. These are the folks (ya'll know who are) that should and I think most of us would like to see participate more often.

lchappell wrote:I think the point of this discussion was to generate more participation and higher quality entries. There are quite a few very talented members here and have been for the entire tenure of pxleyes (some of which a participating in this discussion.) I have to ask the question, why do these "Uber Talented" members not dazzle us with brilliance more often? The more you participate the better your chances of gaining TP! Kind of like a game sort of...the law of odds, if you will.

If the purpose of this revamp the system suggestion is to generate better quality pieces... I would say leave the top 7 thing alone, however award the stand out entries with a nice amount of "Bonus TP." I'm saying those entries that score higher than say a 70% should have the talent points awarded for it's particular position in the rankings, Doubled.

Another idea I have is to have an invitational only contest bi-monthly. A Captains Choice tournament chosen by the Mod/Admin Staff from those members with an average score of perhaps 65% and better. These are the folks (ya'll know who are) that should and I think most of us would like to see participate more often.

Actually, a VERY valid point...thank you...I see your reasoning behind this, and, if allowed to revamp my position, I agree. (Hoping I'm in the 'uber-talented' category) I can see how your suggestion would bring up the playing field a bit...yes, keep the 'top-7' especially in photo and reward the 70%+ scoring entries with extra TP...that for certain would bring the quality up a bit...the competition for great photos would get fairly good.

The invitation only contest is also a great idea....for all disciplines...only the top "X" scoring members allowed to compete for grander prizes...a best-of-the-best as it were...

I guess I am 'guilty' of not dazzling as often as I could...but, I hope to change that if the rewards are worth the effort...

Thank you for a very valid argument...

This is going to be a long one so prepare for eyestrain:
Some facts gathered from the results and ranks pages which may make some sense if you are mad enough to read this whole rant. (Note the levels and number of entries picked are arbitrary numbers than made sense to me.)

PhotoShop: 1646 total Competitors
65 Members with Level 20+
293 Members with Level 10 +
86 Members with 50 + entries

Photography 655 total Competitors
50 Members with Level 20 +
175 Members with Level 10 +
72 Members with 100 + entries

Drawing 303 total Competitors
5 Members with Level 20 +
58 Members with Level 10 +
50 Members with 10 + entries

3d 142 total Competitors
4 Members with Level 20 +
23 Members with Level 10 +
31 Members with 10 + entries

All of the contests in every area of this site have s couple of common issues such as poor quality entries, low numbers of voters, and few useful or quality comments.

In all contest types low number of entries could be related to the themes or sources that are suggested, the length of time that a contest is open for entries or perhaps something I have not thought of.

Too find out what the issues aside from TP, buying entries with points or not we maybe should be asking the members who compete regularly in the various contest types. They are the ones that compete in the contests and are most likely the best to ask how things could be improved.

As not many of the members seem to inhabit the forums maybe a PM directed to all the members or just the Level 10 or 20 plus members in all contest areas could spur more comments and discussion. Who knows maybe there is someone out there who has the perfect solution.

I couple of thoughts that came up in my fevered brain are:

Perhaps the members in drawing would not mind if the Traditional and Digital contests were combined to up the number of entries in the contest – Ask them they are the competitors .

Members who compete in 3D may want more time or some changes in the contest rules –again I have no idea as this is not an area I compete in.

Changes in the way sources of themes are chosen could apply to all the contests. This may or may not be an issue.

Changes to rules (OTHER THAN THE COPYRIGHT RULE – which I think is very important to keep) say a contest in photography which would allow a bit more use of Photoshop. Who knows maybe a few of the members who are strictly Photographers would be turned on to the “choppin” side of PhotoShop.

The issue of quality entries covers all the contest types and is best solved (in my mind) by ever member taking the time to fairly and with a critical eye vote on every entry in a contest. Not saying you should vote for every entry is all contests. Picking only one or two entries in a contest to love or hate is unfair to all the others who take the time to prepare an entry.

Linking the number of votes you cast in a contest to your level in that contest area rather than the current across the board vote power, could go a long way to improve the quality of entries. I have no idea what it takes to create a life like entry for a 3D contest, only someone who is a regular competitor with some level of expertise as judged by their peers know that.

End of rant.

PS I also thing that lchappell has a very valid point in his previous post he got that in between my starting and finishing this piece.

There are a lot of good ideas in all of these, one of Alans that stand out is;

As not many of the members seem to inhabit the forums maybe a PM directed to all the members or just the Level 10 or 20 plus members in all contest areas could spur more comments and discussion. Who knows maybe there is someone out there who has the perfect solution.

Perhaps to all members who have more than 10 entries?
Vibeke

jcf18252 wrote:
Actually, a VERY valid point...thank you...I see your reasoning behind this, and, if allowed to revamp my position, I agree. (Hoping I'm in the 'uber-talented' category) I can see how your suggestion would bring up the playing field a bit...yes, keep the 'top-7' especially in photo and reward the 70%+ scoring entries with extra TP...that for certain would bring the quality up a bit...the competition for great photos would get fairly good.

The invitation only contest is also a great idea....for all disciplines...only the top "X" scoring members allowed to compete for grander prizes...a best-of-the-best as it were...

I guess I am 'guilty' of not dazzling as often as I could...but, I hope to change that if the rewards are worth the effort...

Thank you for a very valid argument...

Alan2641 wrote:
PS I also thing that lchappell has a very valid point in his previous post he got that in between my starting and finishing this piece.

Thanks guys, for the support. Friiskiwi is on the right track...an effort should be made to get more voices heard in the forum, indeed the contributing members to this thread will increase their respective "activity point" level and no doubt have some reasonable if not exciting proposals too.