HMM seeing as I only got 1 response from where I actually posted this 'argument' I may have posted in the wrong section/thread so I'm opening it up for discussion here!!...

OK here goes:

Quote:
5.7. 3D Renders or Illustrations as Source: Using other people's 3D renders or illustrations (even with permission) creates a false impression of your artwork. So 3D renders or illustrations can not be used as sources, unless they are entirely created by yourself.[/quote]


Whats the view on complex brushes that are freely available? I'm personally of an opinion that using other peoples 'pre made' brushes is a grey area here that should really be addressed, as in some cases these too can fall under other peoples illustrations (in terms of vector brushes) but my main argument for not allowing these pre made brushes is this:

when using brushes which are defined from an image... for example a cloud (which seems to be a favourite for some!)... a link is submitted for the download section for that brush... BUT... the brush was made from an image... so it hasn't actually linked to the source... just the result... For all you know the brush could have been made from a copyrighted image... and seeing as you never see the original image that's where the problem lies...

I think the use of any complex brush (by complex I mean defined by image or illustration['define brush preset'] ) which is downloaded should be considered a breach of the rules... and if such a brush is to be used; that the author make that brush - submit the original source image uncut in his/her sbs, (as you are required when using your own source images) and possibly include the breakdown of the construction of that brush as proof (as clouds are hard to distinguish apart)...

Also in many instances the use of these pre made brushes aren't necessary when a source image could be used instead... with better results.

Anyway, I would be interested to see what others think...

My personal feelings are that rule 5.7 also applies to brushes. Any premade illustrations and 3D renders used to make these kind off brushes should be handled as a part of rule 5.7 and should therefor from now on not be allowed anymore.

As for brushes made from images like clouds, stars and so on, that is another problem. Since the original images are not mentioned in most of those brushes and the origin of those original images most of the times are dubious they shouldn't be allowed.
There's enough legal sources outthere to replace those brushes so that is no reason to not start banning them. Furthermore it is pretty easy to make stars and so on yourself, using a brush for them is just a shortcut.

I share Rob's opinion .
Maybe there would be more response if -as experiment- these brushes wouldnt be allowed anymore

I dont have a problem with a complete ban on pre-made brushes of any description, I can make my own quite easily and have only 2 reasons for using pre-mades in the past. 1- They are allowed in contests & 2-It saves me a little time.
I say if its any kind of a grey area or problematic as regards copyright then dont allow them, there are plenty of tutorials on how to create them and making reference to the image you used in your sbs would certainly rule out the copyright issue.
In short, I agree with your point James, but I do take the use of the brushes into account when voting, so it wouldn`t make a difference to me personally.

Alright. only because i think things are getting out of hand with what is allowed and what isn't allowed, i'm going to put my two cents in.

How many of you have unlimited time to sit and chop to your hearts delight?

not many. thats why not many people put in an entry each week.
i for one, do not. i rely on brushes that i've downloaded because they are a free resource, and they take my time that i have put into a piece to a more manageable level.
i do not have the time to sit and make brushes for the entries i do. i think if we are going to outlaw pre made brushes, you better start watching the ps entries for lack of support.
pretty soon you won't be allowed to use filters. how do we know those are allowable resources used to make those filters?
and then you won't be allowed to use pre-defined actions, unless you can explain step by step how you did them.

I get what you are saying about the images that people are getting these brushes from...but honestly, tell me that any of the brushes for clouds, or bruising, or cracks, decay, rot, hair, or glow/sparkle, rain, snow ..yadayadayada the list goes on and on, tell me those things are going to be copyrighted?
now, if you are using the silly band logos or full images tubed out into a brush (similar to the paintshoppro tubes) then, you really aren't doing yourself any favors.
BUT...simple things like clouds and rain etc, well...those are helpful..and save me tons of time when chopping for a contest here.

a week isn't alot of time when you have work and kids and real life in the way. shaving 1 hour off my chopping time by having teh brush i want when i need it is important. sure i could get along without them...but aren't we becoming a bit elitist anyway? lets knock out any reasoning for an ameture to even join up with our site. once they see that they can't use this image or that resource, or now even brushes...well, thats enough to discourage alot of people.

guess i'd better get to making brushes. i can already see where this is heading. Hopefully like the photography section, you'll find that this only inhibits the activity here and restrains things. like hdr and panoramas, its things to help artists grow and express themselves.
basic brushes should be allowed to stay. i've had my say.

I could see if an image was mostly comprised of image tube brushes, but if a brush is used for a finishing touch it should be allowed. an example would be my thief entry http://www.pxleyes.com/photoshop-pictur ... hief-.html without the bubble brush I used (included with wacom tablet) the picture wouldn't of been complete. Also how far are we gonna have to go to start proving where brushes came from? Am I going to have to make an sbs for brushes I created over five years ago? Are we going to start banning some of the brushes included with photoshop, such as the grass brush or the preloaded shapes? I agree that some images overdo it on image brushes. But shouldn't their score be reflected based upon not only the final image but how they arrived at the finished entry. Many times I can tell when such brushes are used and I vote based on how they utilized that brush.

I've resorted to using a pre-made brush once in hundreds of entries. Does that mean I'm a genius? NO...it just means I'm not lazy. Brush users, try to be creative instead of being spoon fed somebody else's work. For crying out loud, if you go to DA, there are brushes that are practically entire illustrations!

My 2 bits ...

IMO there comes a point where you have to balance the demands for perfection with reality, acceptance and trust. Either people enter images with proper documentation or, if not, we trust those judging to vote accordingly or red flag it.

I usually make my own brushes but there are cases when I just don't have the time or it is redundant (example is the PS default ivy brush I used in Like a Moth http://www.pxleyes.com/images/contests/mixed-manipulations-5/fullsize/Like-A-Moth-4ce79de7a17a7_hires.jpg), it just didn't make sense to make something that was already there.

Then there is showing the sources for my brushes ... like Chalty said, I have older brushes that I doubt I could find the sources for (I always use my own photo's for creating my brushes it just isn't always obvious what image I used).

On average every entry I have done has had a reasonably extensive SBS (I have even shown how I created a brush) but the SBS's take time and it makes the whole process much more intensive; like jadedink said ... I have work, family and home to care for, if much more is needed then I will have more of a problem keeping up.

I respect the need for the SBS a great deal! I respect that most of the people on this site are aware of the work involved in creating an image, as such I appreciated their comments, critiques and suggestions. It is one of the reasons I really like this site but I do think this is taking it just a little too far. Perhaps, as Rob said, brushes that are obviously pre-made illustrations and 3D render based could be disallowed. Going beyond that may be pushing the demand for perfection too far.

And finally ... a number of entries (including advanced ones) don't have an SBS ... or only have the bare minimum! Some of these have even placed in the top 3. Perhaps work should be done on defining when a SBS is required, when it isn't and how extensive it should be (and enforcing that rule) before making the whole process even more demanding thus making people more reluctant to create them.

Okay so it was more than 2 bits worth ... but there you go!

I think what is in question here is the use of the elaborately made brushes and not the use of basic brushes. Brushes which come with PS should always be allowed. The ones that are questionable are some of these bird. tree, Dracula, fish, etc. Those I must admit I have a problem with. Two or three clicks and you have your entire image made.

I get what you are saying about the images that people are getting these brushes from...but honestly, tell me that any of the brushes for clouds, or bruising, or cracks, decay, rot, hair, or glow/sparkle, rain, snow ..yadayadayada the list goes on and on, tell me those things are going to be copyrighted?

hair - glow/sparkle - snow can be made quite easily using the brush settings so why download a brush?

Clouds are freely available to take advantage of and don't take long to add Uncut in your SBS nor is it time consuming to make a feathered selection and drag into comp.

Decay, rot - you can take your own pictures or find stock of these online, and use blending modes which is more effective than a brush. Even the dry media brushes can be used for this purpose...

The shipped with filters and effects, and brushes are a standard part of photoshop so isn't a problem... in fact, lightning, cracks, rain can be achieved with such you dont need a brush.

Hopefully something significant to an entry, made entirely in photoshop would be explained in a sbs of sorts...

without the bubble brush I used (included with wacom tablet) the picture wouldn't of been complete

obviously that shipped with your hardware, and really isn't a 'complex' brush nor is it an illustration or made from an image... bubble brushes can be made within photoshop itself... so that's fine as far as I'm concerned...

The main issue is exactly what solkee said (much better than me infact )!!!

I think what is in question here is the use of the elaborately made brushes and not the use of basic brushes. Brushes which come with PS should always be allowed. The ones that are questionable are some of these bird. tree, Dracula, fish, etc. Those I must admit I have a problem with. Two or three clicks and you have your entire image made.