Leaving Pxleyes due to unfair voting patterns

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Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:22 am
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:40 am
I'm seriously considering leaving Pxleyes because it's very obvious that there is unfair voting going on. If others have noticed this, you too should speak out against it rather than let it run rampant and ruin the morale of contestants. It is such a shame, since I joined Pxleyes with a lot of enthusiasm and high hopes, was able to enhance my skills here and made a lot of good friends as well. But if in the end, the people in charge have neither the respect or recognition of higher quality work nor the ability to judge entries fairly and are instead furthering entries that are of lower quality in concept, execution and presentation, then it is really pointless and frustrating for the rest of us.

Although this unfair voting is something that has happened to me before and I have also noticed it in other PS, drawing and photography contests, the most recent example of votepower abuse, 'String Instruments' in 3D is mind-boggling. I have nothing personal at all against any of the members, actually most of them are my friends, but if mods, the ppl voting, particularly those with high votepower, are misusing their votes or lack proper knowledge to vote fairly, then this is A VERY SERIOUS ISSUE indeed and undermines the whole idea of this entire site.

I could have stayed quiet about this as a lot of members I'm sure do, or I could have gone the way of Mircea and others, who just stopped participating out of sheer disgust and frustration because of facing the same thing. Instead, I would rather leave albeit with a heavy heart and remove all my entries from here.
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Posts: 1880
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:41 am
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:48 am
It would be a pity to see you leave but you must do what you feel best.
I very rarely vote in the 3D section due to time constraints and my lack of knowledge in the subject.
The results is up to the members, they vote the way they think is correct. The mods have nothing at all to do with the final outcome. The mods don't remove votes unless it is a blatant attempt to manipulate the score (eg. voting 1-10% on all entries in which that person has an entry). If the mods removed votes which they disagreed with then the mods would be manipulating the scores and that is not allowed and certainly not done.
We have all had entries that have finished lower than what we believe they should have, unfortunately the rest of the members didn't agree with us. Maybe it wasn't the rest of the members that got it wrong, maybe it was our belief in where the entry should have finished that was wrong. What I am saying is don't cry fowl just because you see the results differently. We have many members from very different cultures, art styles, education and so on which view things very differently. Therefore they will also vote very differently.
To sum up I wouldn't pay $10 for some of the $1000000 artworks in museums, does that mean they are crap? It just means that they are not to my taste and if they were in a contest here at pxleyes I would vote them low.
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Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:31 pm
Location: Tamaqua, PA, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:26 am
As Robert said...would be a shame to see you leave, but, as you are free to join, you are free to leave.

I normally don't vote in 3D either, having no idea how to do 3D modeling, I am easily impressed by some of the work and for some work, have no real concept of the time that goes into it. Photography is my specialty...which, it's curious you mention photo as I see you only have 1 photo entry and that finished 2nd out of 22 entries...not bad for your first photo entry. A lot of members put up many, many entries before placing in the top 3.

Your top 7 percentage is over 97%!!! Pretty damn good IMHO...

If it's others' entries you are talking about finishing better/worse than what you expected...I see a lot of entries I "thought" should win/shouldn't win over the years...but, heck, that's just me and my opinion. Some shots I think are just fantastic just don't finish well for one reason or another, mostly it happens when I see something that is technically spot-on and just lacked the WOW-factor for the members to vote it higher...it happens. Also I have been surprised to the reverse, something that I never thought in a million years would finish in the top 7 finished 1st or 2nd...

You say you have nothing against the members, that many are your "friends", but, in the same breath you condemn the "voters". The members and 'friends' ARE the voters...not the Mods or Admin...yes, mods vote, but we don't control the vote. Many members have higher VP than many of the Mods! We do look for unfair voting patterns, but rarely remove votes as Robert pointed out....doing so would have the possibility of swaying the contest results based on our own bias. We ONLY remove votes that are clearly intended to try and manipulate contest results...like a 'friend' voting 100% on one members entries and 1%-10% on all other entries in a contest...and ONLY after a consensus with another Mod (or several).

All of our actions are monitored not only by the other Mods, but, admin as well...and Admin, BTW...does not vote for your information, nor does he remove votes or anything else...He designs, programs and maintains the site. When it comes to a modding issue, admin has the courtesy and respect to ask for an opinion of one/many of us before making a member related decision. If we had a rouge Mod trying to control the vote, we would be the first to know, and, believe it or not...that Mod would have modded their last contest...we expect a higher standard of ourselves and go to great lengths to be honest and helpful. Mods have been asked to leave in the past.

So, guess my point is, having read your complaint and then read your profile, you appear to be doing quite well and are very talented, I'm a bit confused to exactly what your actual problem is...do I wish everything I submitted for a contest entry placed 1st or 2nd? Hell-to-the-Yea!!! But, in reality, it doesn't and that's life...I have to get over it and submit a better entry next time.
Only a life lived for other is a life worth living - Albert Einstein
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Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:11 am
Location: upstate South Carolina, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:38 pm
I am curious if we even a 3d moderator. Also, whatever happened to the people who earned vote medals statement at the contest results page?
Trust your captain .... but keep your seatbelt securely fastened.
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Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:25 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:14 pm
Rumi, Yes sometime I notice that the voting seems unfair but that is what you get when you have a voting system...what I think is good you may think is not good and vise versa. I wouldn't let it bother you. :YMPEACE:
Life is too short...It's the longest thing you'll ever do
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Posts: 499
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:00 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:25 pm
%-(
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Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:11 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:35 pm
Well, the impression i have is that most people vote based on the appearance of an entry. As appearance i mean, the way it's composed, the degree of detail and the level of originality. Rest is history, most likely.

I've had entries, which i worked my ass off, with not so good scores, and other entries... which took me a few hours to make, and they've got way better scores. It's unfair? Yes, but that's the way it is... in everything, here and there, in virtual or real life.
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Posts: 2212
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:49 pm
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:55 pm
This is a website with members of varying levels of knowledge about the programs used and about art in general. Some will vote in an analytical way evaluating the technical merits of the entry and the artistic aspects. The majority will vote "from the gut" based simply on what they like. As has been stated moderators don't have control over the voting and only on rare occasions do we remove a vote and even then it's usually a low VP member with little impact on the final score. I'm not pleased with many of the scores I see but members are allowed to vote as they please and that's why the results are what they are. I personally would like to see a return to the old PS Talent system of voting feedback with opinions on the different aspects of the entry like originality, technical quality, lighting, humor etc.. After the contest ended we could see the opinions (anonymously) of the voters. This made voters think more about how they voted and the feedback would give you an indication where you needed to improve.
It's hard for most people to be objective about their work and it's one of the first things you learn in art school. It's normal to like your own work and I do think you are talented and have produced fine work. Consider what people have said here, Akassa makes a good point in that it isn't always the entry you worked hardest on that gets the better response, it's more how members react to your entry that gets the better scores. It may not always seem fair but that is the way it is.

lchappell wrote:I am curious if we even a 3d moderator. Also, whatever happened to the people who earned vote medals statement at the contest results page?

I assume you're asking if we have a 3D moderator, yes Loyd there is a full time 3D moderator who is only assigned to those contests and has the expertise to know what's being done. As for the vote medals on the contest results page, you'd have to ask admin about that. Personally I don't care about vote medals at all.
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Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:13 am
Location: Winnipeg Manitoba
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:06 pm
This may be where changing the vote power to reflect the voters level in a contest type could be of some help.

I am one of the Members with 5000 vote power. This was most likely gained by my simpley voting on every entry in every contest rather than any expertise in the various contest types and the fact that I have been here as long as dirt.

I would like to see my vote power in all contests be reduced to the level I have obtained in an area.

Level 15 in Photoshop should equal 15 votes rather than 50
Level 8 in Photography should equal 8 votes rather than 50
and my Level 1 (the default) should only count for one vote in 3d and the drawing contests vote rather than 50.
If I wanted to get more vote power in 3d or drawing I should have to enter contests and be judged by the experts in the field.

Using this would a least ensure that the votes by the highest ranking members in a contest type are the ones with influence over the final scores. May get rid of some of the WOW factor that could fool a member who has no idea what it take to make a good 3D entry.
Why is everything always in the last place you look?
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Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:11 am
Location: upstate South Carolina, USA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:41 pm
I have to say I am in support of Alan2641 about the vote power. I too am one of the 50VP members. I do not not mind seeing the VP be more associated with a members skill level rather than how many votes they have cast. I think this VP should be equal to the ranking you hold in each of the divisions: photography, 2d, 3d or drawing.

Spaceranger, thanks for answering the question. Still sort of curious why this person is not recognized as such, or have I missed something? The wondering about who has achieved vote medals...its just a good indicator as to how many voters there actually were...who they were is not necessarily important, but lets us members know how many people are looking and or voting.
Trust your captain .... but keep your seatbelt securely fastened.
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